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Thread: Zimbra vs. Exchange

  1. #11
    p24t is offline Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baylink View Post
    I need a mail program to *be a mail program*
    Then perhaps you should just use postfix/mutt

    Zimbra is shiny and pretty to make my users happy. I can do mostly everything I want from the CLI, so I'm happy. (actually I don't even CLI as much anymore, i've scripted mostly everything)

    Yes, there's features I'd like to see. A couple of them I've submitted as RFE's. Honestly, I don't think Zimbra is the ultimate power-user's email client. It is, however a very useful groupware client.

    And don't forget that you can use mutt with ZCS too (assuming you actually have some need for more than just email, and still run a ZCS box)

  2. #12
    dijichi2 is offline OpenSource Builder & Moderator
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    I can bring the snarky with the best of them, but that was not it.

    That was a serious question, and, again, prospective paying customer here.

    I'll say *prospective* one more time, since I don't think it's getting across.

    I won't be paying for the code, clearly, I'll be paying for the company.

    I need a mail program to *be a mail program*, and so far, *lots* of stuff I usually don't even bother to think about a) just isn't there and b) no one seems to care that it's not.

    That troubles me a *lot*.

    Stuff like proper threading, proper quoting and attribution, mailing list handling, reasonably handling of plaintext mail, and the like is stuff that is just not optional to me in an MUA, and I move a *lot* of mail -- 3-400 messages a day.

    The backend of Zimbra may come from the "best FOSS traditions", but the more I look at the web client, the more it looks like it was feature-designed by people who grew up with Outhouse and Outhouse Exploit, rather than Mutt, and that's a mindset that I just can't cope with well.
    every now and then we get people coming onto the forums thinking they know better than everyone else and tell us how zimbra doesn't work, what is wrong with it, and how xxx is better. if you don't like what you see, either fix it or go find something else.

  3. #13
    Baylink is offline Elite Member
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    Are you a Zimbra employee, dji?

    Cause if that's Zimbra's official, commercial, position, then sure, I won't spend my $1200 a year on you; you don't deserve it.

    I believe you missed the "paying customer" observation. I know you're the open source guy, but that doesn't really justify you blowing off people with checkbooks. Knowing that is one of the things I expect from someone who is in the occasionally sticky seat you hold; it doesn't appear you do.
    Jay R. Ashworth - ZCS 6.0.9CE/CentOS5 - St Pete FL US - Music - Blog - Photography - IANAL - IAAMA
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    If you [SOLVE] something, please tell everyone how for the archives
    And, please... read what people write, and answer the questions they asked, not the ones they didn't.

  4. #14
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    mmorse is offline Moderator
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    @whchuang
    You can connect your Gmail account in both ZCS web-client & Zimbra Desktop.
    Not really Google Docs 'one click' integration at the moment (understandably we're focused on integrating migration or sync with Yahoo services fist), so you'll have to export from Google docs > .doc/.xls > into our own documents app (or store in briefcase).

    @Baylink
    I vaguely remember an RFC list somewhere but can't find it (if it's even up-to-date).

    Moderators, OpenSource Buildmasters & Contributors aren't employees - they give up their time freely to help.
    Sorry if it seems like we pounced on ya - you can certainly troll for bugzilla votes - it's just that holding a requirement that you need over their heads/what seems kinda like jumping on a thread just to nail home a 'not all RFC's point' is often taken like animosity. But we certainly don't ignore input, quell dissent, or censor these forums in any way. (Though I realize deep down you were just asking for a list.)

    Zimbra becomes exactly what people ask of it: Open Source Product Management: How do features get into Zimbra? » Zimbra :: Blog

    Not trying to fight ya back, seriously keep bringing feedback like this up. If it simply turns out that in its current state ZCS is not for you I understand, it's how the cookie crumbles, and I hope you try it out in the future. Zimbra is about something more - giving back, enhancing, and shaping the future of mail. Your ideas are what keep us up at 2AM pushing the limits of collaboration.
    Last edited by mmorse; 09-04-2008 at 11:28 AM.

  5. #15
    Baylink is offline Elite Member
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    This is the NFL, Mike; Internet forums always have been.

    Your attitude, though, is the one I expect.

    I don't expect to get everything I ask for... but then, neither does Florida Power when they ask for 31% rate increases, and then "only" get the 15% they really wanted.

    I, on the other hand, want everything I ask for, but that doesn't mean I'm not willing to live without it.

    What I am *not* willing to live with is vendors with bad attitudes about my requests. Thank you for clarifying precisely who's empowered to have a bad attitude on Zimbra, Inc's behalf, and whose attitudes I can ignore.

    :-)

    Now, that said, while Bugzilla's voting facility is useful as a thermometer for a project/product manager to take the temperature of a user community, I don't expect that to be the only thing that person would use to determine resource allocation and feature to release mapping; hopefully, it's not.

    In short: I don't object to supplying some patches -- even given how steep the Z codebase almost certainly is to climb, given how complex it is -- and I even don't object overly strenuously to your licensing terms (which are effectively the opposite of the GPL, and much closer to BSD, although your release license is OSI compliant, I gather) -- but I'm not at all clear on what your patch integration policy is, assuming you have one, and if I'm going to do your work for you, I'd at least like to know I'm not wasting my time.

    So the "will patches which implement these features in a reasonable code and UI fashion be entertained for inclusion in the mainline code, and on what schedule" is a conversation I want to have with the person who owns the repo before I dig in.

    I'm much more a designer than a coder -- and that's a very difficult position to be in on FOSS projects; nobody likes an outside designer.

    I appreciate your jumping in and clarifying things, though.

    Seems I went from nobody to Senior Member in about 8 posts, and immediately thence to the doghouse. :-)
    Jay R. Ashworth - ZCS 6.0.9CE/CentOS5 - St Pete FL US - Music - Blog - Photography - IANAL - IAAMA
    Try to Ask Questions The Smart Way -- you'll get better answers.

    Put your product and version in your profile/signature - All opinions strictly my own, even though I have an employer these days.
    If you [SOLVE] something, please tell everyone how for the archives
    And, please... read what people write, and answer the questions they asked, not the ones they didn't.

  6. #16
    dijichi2 is offline OpenSource Builder & Moderator
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    Are you a Zimbra employee, dji?

    Cause if that's Zimbra's official, commercial, position, then sure, I won't spend my $1200 a year on you; you don't deserve it.

    I believe you missed the "paying customer" observation. I know you're the open source guy, but that doesn't really justify you blowing off people with checkbooks. Knowing that is one of the things I expect from someone who is in the occasionally sticky seat you hold; it doesn't appear you do.
    I am absolutely nothing to do with Zimbra. Not even a moderator on this forum. I am not the open source guy, i'm just one of the many interested joe public interested in trying to help Zimbra along the way. We try and help people on the forums/irc who need help where we can give it, and try and improve the codebase where we can. I am also an actual paying customer, and potentially a very large paying customer - although I have never once used this an excuse for arrogant diatribes (i do those for free).

    I'm very happy for you that you now know who to ignore and who continue to mouth off at. I'm sure this will get you what you want, best of luck.

  7. #17
    Baylink is offline Elite Member
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    "Open source Buildmaster" seems a pretty semi-official title. But yes, you're right, I now know whom to ignore.

    I expect that paying my bills will get me what I want, and available-as-open-source or not, I don't think that's at all unreasonable.

    Clearly, Mike, who is a staffer, and my salesperson, both think that's fairly reasonable as well.

    This is the net, dude. If you can't take the hard spikes, stop playing volleyball. It's only ones and zeroes.
    Jay R. Ashworth - ZCS 6.0.9CE/CentOS5 - St Pete FL US - Music - Blog - Photography - IANAL - IAAMA
    Try to Ask Questions The Smart Way -- you'll get better answers.

    Put your product and version in your profile/signature - All opinions strictly my own, even though I have an employer these days.
    If you [SOLVE] something, please tell everyone how for the archives
    And, please... read what people write, and answer the questions they asked, not the ones they didn't.

  8. #18
    dijichi2 is offline OpenSource Builder & Moderator
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    Are you for real? I'm curious.

  9. #19
    Baylink is offline Elite Member
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    The people who pay me, and the people who run the projects I help out on, seem to think so.

    So, if you don't... :-)

    And I, too, don't charge for my arrogant diatribes.
    Last edited by Baylink; 09-05-2008 at 07:24 AM.
    Jay R. Ashworth - ZCS 6.0.9CE/CentOS5 - St Pete FL US - Music - Blog - Photography - IANAL - IAAMA
    Try to Ask Questions The Smart Way -- you'll get better answers.

    Put your product and version in your profile/signature - All opinions strictly my own, even though I have an employer these days.
    If you [SOLVE] something, please tell everyone how for the archives
    And, please... read what people write, and answer the questions they asked, not the ones they didn't.

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