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Thread: All the Yahoo stuff around

  1. #11
    mmorse's Avatar
    mmorse is offline Moderator
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    Solutions/steps you can take now if you want, things we'll fix in the next release, & quick thoughts:

    Quote Originally Posted by arkanis View Post
    When you switch to one of the themes, it's even writen "Yahoo Mail" ? WTF ?
    Probably was the 'Yahoo' theme which doesn't pull from the _base skins folder for it's images. Neither do waves or lemongrass.
    Sidetrack: Hm, if you clicked on a skin called google what would you expect it to look like? I don't know, but you might visit the current //depot/zcs/FRANKLIN/ZimbraWebClient/WebRoot/skins/

    I suppose to make that 'accurate' you'd have to disable all the nice AJAX features like drag-n-drop of mail items - lol.

    Anyways back to options:
    A) Disable the Yahoo skin in your COS or remove it from zimbraInstalledSkins all together.
    Quote Originally Posted by bigmudcake View Post
    And second, isn't it in violation of the license that requires the Zimbra logo to be part of any skin (or changes to a skin in open source edition).
    B) Well Y! own's Zimbra, and parent company logo updates are proably allowed. But I don't think anyone here is going to find you at fault in violation of the license if you wanted to point that skin.properties file at the normal Zimbra logos within _base/logos/LoginBanner.png & AppBanner.png
    There's even corresponding ZimbraInside / ZimbraPowered logos depending upon how you modify the software.
    Customizing Themes and Adding Zimbra Powered Logo - Open Source Edition - Zimbra :: Wiki & ZWC 5.0 Themes (gives directions for ZimbraInside logos which are included in the _base/logos/ZimbraInside folder)

    C) If using NE you can replace them with your own logos to your liking course.

    Quote Originally Posted by bigmudcake View Post
    I find the "yahoo mail" logo and absence of "Zimbra" branding confusing for me and my users.

    I constantly have to explain to them "no your not using the free Yahoo Mail provided by the Yahoo web services but our company email with a skin branded Yahoo Mail". Yahoo has a Yahoo Mail system accessed at mail.yahoo.com and a collaborative suite called Zimbra. Please don't confuse the two for us users by mis-branding your products.
    I can agree with that rational, and some should be corrected in 5.0.9.

    See FRANKLIN/ZimbraWebClient/WebRoot/skins/yahoo/logos/AppBanner.png-

    Old AppBanner.png#1:


    Has been replaced with AppBanner.png#2:



    D) It's in the public perforce cache so you could replace your current with that as well.

    However LoginBanner.png for this skin is still just one big YAHOO! so I've filed the following RFE Bug 30183 - Yahoo Skin LoginBanner.png to have the default changed to:




    Actually I don't think the yahoo skin ever pointed at _base/logos in the properties file when it was first rolled out, and people could have certainly checked it out it before enabling it for users.
    Examining /FRANKLIN/ZimbraWebClient/WebRoot/skins/yahoo/skin.properties#1 through #12 it always has some variation of:
    LogoImgDir = @SkinImgDir@/logos
    OR
    LogoImgDir = /zimbra/skins/yahoo/logos

    Here's some recent corrections to it: Bug 26931 - Need to convert yahoo skin to use base2

    Quote Originally Posted by bigmudcake View Post
    I personally find it particularly confusing as I use Yahoo Mail quite often (the mail service provided by Yahoo not to be confused with Zimbra web client) and the Zimbra client and find it more difficult to know which one is open when I have them open at the same time.
    Lol - I'm gonna take part of that as a complement - means that in a way we're integrating smoothly if our mock skin is that close to Ymail (or them taking ideas out of our hat sometimes as well). Part of spreading Zimbra products to a half-billion Y! users is about commonality & minimal new learning curves; so a single user interface makes that go a whole lot easier.
    Infact a lot of people would be hard pressed to tell which Y! services are powered by Zimbra front-end, Zimbra back-end, or both. There is or will soon be some of all 3 in the wild if you look closely.

    I will allow that we may have gone about it the wrong way and could create a separate yahoo2 skin internally for our rollouts but we want you guys to have the ability to check out the cool skins as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by arkanis View Post
    Smileys already made the way on this release I see. I'm kind of worried.
    This was probably a common request as most expect chat clients to be able to do this, but you can simply undeploy com_zimbra_ymemoticons.zip
    OR file a reverse RFE & drum up support to have it moved back to /opt/zimbra/zimlets-extras. That's the beauty of this community. Open Source Product Management: How do features get into Zimbra?

    For instance an example confliction: Bug 13183 - view mail for domain admins is a contradiction to people wanting to keep the current "can't view mail" for domain admins so in response to that there's Bug 11374 - View Mail: should be possible to disable this which will be handled by this RFE: Bug 11515 - role based delegate administration

    So yes, we could have done the above 'less-invasivly' by using a internal only skin that defaults to a Y! logo and keep the skin.properties pointing at _base for NE & FOSS ZCS (or used one's with the Zimbra name like waves, lemongrass, etc). What's funny about it is that if we put all our 'play' skins in the source (like we occasionally do with _sample), then someone would have just complained about having several variants of yahoo skins showing up in their skins folder. Meanwhile someone else would have filed an RFE to get them turned on by default because they like them.

    I understand that not everyone has the time to read every bug action like I try to do, so for most it's upgrade then discover new features - but we're open source to the core, and you can grab out main branch of code daily for everything but NE related features. Plus it's always a good practice to use a test dev or demo environment before production rollout.

    Guide Zimbra to contain what you want it to be by using Bugzilla & tagged support ticket requests to add weight if you're NE.

    Everyone in this thread is an excellent contributor or valued frequent forum member - I'm really not trying to be condescending in any of the above wording - but everyone here knows that all roads to getting something fixed, corrected, changed, or developed by Zimbraineers lead to Bugzilla, so make me proud and check PM occasionally so we're not worrying about tiny things like logos and can instead fuss over & shape the truly great RFE ideas out there.
    Last edited by mmorse; 07-23-2008 at 12:05 PM. Reason: sry pic of that logo isn't allowed

  2. #12
    jholder's Avatar
    jholder is offline Former Zimbran
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    Quote Originally Posted by arkanis View Post
    Jholder, I'm kind of surprised of your reaction... I was maybe wrong in calling it "crap", but the way you are pointing it to me is wrong and agressive.

    I'm also surprised because I remember you as a nice guy on the forums always willing to help everyone around. And this STFU thing with the uninstall command is insulting.

    As long as a brand exist, clients of that brand collaborate and exchange ideas because they beleive they could make the product better. As wrong as my statements could be, I deeply beleive that intrusive brand is a bad thing no matter what product we are talking about, and I made my statement because usualy when I wrote things here in the past people listened and even implemented the things I was needing in the product. So there you have it.

    If I was using the open source edition, I wouldn't have complained at all since I would be using something amazing given to me for free. But I'm paying for this product, and even if the developer is in it's own rights to take the ways he want, he should listen to the user base.

    You don't like the way I said things, just say it politely and I will be open to discussion and even understand a lot of things. But the STFU way is bad, and worst since you are a Yahoo employee (and you sounded much like a Yahoo evangelist).

    Intrusive branding is a bad thing, always been and will always be.


    A.
    That's fine. You can be insulted. Don't call things that are FREE and people spend their livelihood working on, crap. Period.

    We go out of our way to make free open source products that make our community happy. We LISTEN to you, and even went as far as to change our license, and you come into OUR forum and say that our brand is CRAP?

    What kind of response did you expect? Think about how your words can be interpreted before you post. I did. That's exactly why I said what I did.

  3. #13
    bigmudcake is offline Senior Member
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    Hi JHolder and mmorse,

    Thanks for your in depth reply. And please do take the yahoo theme layout as a compliment :-) as I personally find it the best out of all the mail UI I have used, its one of the main reasons I keep using Yahoo mail service as my personal mailbox. (I particularly like how you can open multiple emails in seperate tabs accross the top, which I believe to be unique to Yahoo Mail).

    I have been a Yahoo Mail (plus myYahoo, contacts, calendar and bookmarks) user for over 15 years now, and have seen several UI changes during that time, all for the better.

    This is why I do prefer the Yahoo theme in zimbra as I believe its the best structured UI around.

    My reasoning is more a case of product confusion, since you already have a "Yahoo Mail" branded service out there, which is not the case of the other unique skins like waves or lemongrass. But its my bad for not filing a bug report

    I am glad you did take my criticisms of the recent changes constructively and I am very disappointed at the destructive comments and throw-away words put forth by arkanis.

    One of the reasons I prefer Zimbra is the dedication the team there put to this excellent software.
    Last edited by bigmudcake; 07-23-2008 at 06:08 PM.
    Cheers
    Bigmudcake

    I am running:
    Zimbra 5.0.7 Open Source Edition on openSUSE 10.2
    Zimbra 5.0.7 Open Source Edition on openSUSE 10.3 inside VirtualBox
    Zimbra 5.0.7 Open Source Edition on Ubuntu Server 8.04 LTS inside VirtualBox 1.6.2
    Currently testing 5.0.8 on openSUSE 11

  4. #14
    mmorse's Avatar
    mmorse is offline Moderator
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    Here's one on it to vote for: Bug 9585 - Tab to read & compose mail for web client

    And don't forget to vote for the one I created earlier: Bug 30183 - Yahoo Skin LoginBanner.png
    Last edited by mmorse; 07-23-2008 at 07:32 PM. Reason: 2nd RFE

  5. #15
    arkanis is offline Project Contributor
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    Default Well well well...

    Mmorse, thanks a lot for the explanations that where given and I already voted on the the bug thread you just opened. Thanks a lot for the constructive position.

    -------

    Jholder, you attitude is utterly wrong man... First of all, I don't know what are you calling FREE, because Zimbra is not FREE for me since I'm paying licenses for it. If you meant Apache, MySQL, PHP, etc. those are not developped by Zimbra neither by Yahoo.

    And I wasn't calling crap neither Zimbra, neither all the Open Source software, since I respect that movement more than any other software out there and all my servers are Linux (with exception of two Win 2003).

    I don't have to love the brand because I'm using one of it's products. Almost all my userbase is using Windows XP. I have to since it's the defacto, all the software we use is made for it, and bla bla bla all the reasons you already know. Do I have to love Microsoft for that ? NO! Do you love Microsoft or worship them because you are maybe using Windows ?

    Does it make it perfect because you are using it and you should just STFU ?

    Yahoo bought Zimbra when it was about to hit 5.0 I beleive. Until then all the work that was made was done by the guys at Zimbra. For me all the hard work behind Zimbra and the foundations of it are NOT due to Yahoo. Yahoo is injecting money now on Zimbra and that's a good thing for the developement of it. But am I forced to love the brand ? NO ! I don't like Yahoo and I have the right to express it, and I have the right to express too that intrusive branding is a bad thing.

    I don't understand why you take it so personnaly, I wasn't talking about you or any developper working on the zimbra project. It's freaking marketing I'm talking about... And I'm sad to see you have become a Yahoo evangelist. You are a human beeing first... then a Yahoo employee, but are not Yahoo itself.

    If I hurted you, I'm sorry and it wasn't my intention so you have my apologizes. Now as a human beeing and as a costumer, please don't insult me again.


    A.

    P.S : And I know that you guys listen, otherwise I wouldn't have posted that message on the boards. I always got answers here and I hope to keep having them... thanks for the hard work guys.
    Last edited by arkanis; 07-24-2008 at 06:56 AM.

  6. #16
    mike101 is offline Starter Member
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    Default Listen to the customer/potential customer

    Quote Originally Posted by jholder View Post
    That's fine. You can be insulted. Don't call things that are FREE and people spend their livelihood working on, crap. Period.

    We go out of our way to make free open source products that make our community happy. We LISTEN to you, and even went as far as to change our license, and you come into OUR forum and say that our brand is CRAP?

    What kind of response did you expect? Think about how your words can be interpreted before you post. I did. That's exactly why I said what I did.
    I run IT in a medium software development company. I'm in the market for a 300 seat installation for a new mail system (upgrading from Cyrus). Zimbra and Scalix are the shortlist. Quite frankly after this discussion I would have strong reservations moving to Zimbra based on the above. As the individual quite clearly stated, he was using the PAID FOR version which entitles him to pass comment even if a bit strong.
    a. 9 out of 10 people would agree that Yahoo! (especially with the silly exclamation mark) is at best a consumer brand. It looks cheap and nasty on a internal commericial system that is PAID FOR.
    b. Just checked the logs here and nobody used Yahoo search in the past 3 weeks. Yahoo search is not at the races. So why include it in the product? All of my users will ask for google or to remove it.
    c. Zimbra is not cheap - in many estimates as expensive or more so than MS Exchange. See Introducing Zimbra Collaboration Suite so don't behave as if you are doing a favour to everybody.
    d. Microsoft are many things, but you would never catch a MS employee behaving as you are on a company board to a paying customer. You represent the reason why a lot of my colleagues refuse to buy opensource products - arrogent and unhelpful.
    As I said, am in the market as my business is a *nix house and we don't use MS. You (and your colleague respresented the organisation far better with relevant answer) do your organsiation a serious disservice. With the markets the way they are (and Yahoo! making significant redundancies) you need to change your attitude to what the customer wants. In this case we don't want Yahoo! "Crap" pushed on front of our staff - thats a dealbreaker for me and a financial loss for Zimbra.

  7. #17
    dpmchris is offline Special Member
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    While I had read those prior posts and thought they seemed rather heated, I just wanted you to realize that there are ways to minimize the Yahoo branding. The easiest way is to change the skin to something that isn't the Yahoo skin.

    There are other customizations, you just need to look around the forums and wiki. Prsonally the Yahoo! search bar isn't a big bother to us, as all web browsers include a search bar already, and many of our users leave that stuck on Google ;-)

    We saved a lot of money with Zimbra by minimizing hardware required for Exchange, not to mention we do not use AD which would have meant an additional layer of infrastructure and purchasing--and consulting. YMMV.

    Peace!
    Chris
    Version 6.0.16_GA_2998.NETWORK Apr 4, 2012 MACOSXx86
    Xserve 2x Dual Core Xeons 10GB with Xserve RAID

  8. #18
    dwmtractor's Avatar
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    Guys, I don't want to wade into an emotional fray--words have been exchanged in this thread that I would not be proud of. But since a forum thread stays around for a long time and lots of people read it, may I offer the following:
    1. Take a look around the forum and you'll see that the vast majority of posts (including those by Zimbra/Yahoo employees) are helpful, non-judgmental, and full of great advice offered in a friendly manner.
    2. Take a look at the different skins available on the web client and you'll see that the ubiquitous Yahoo! logo appears only on the skin named --surprise, surprise-- "Yahoo." Pick your favorite or design another! Personally I like "Waves" and "Steel," neither of which show any logo but Zimbra's.
    It's a great product and a great community. . .really!
    Cheers,

    Dan

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