MS offering to buy Yahoo ???

[jsmith]

I second that.
We are not going to invest the time, money, and hardware into a solution that may not exist in a very short time (I realized that I just opened up for arguments about how the money and hardware wouldn't be wasted but I hope everyone will see past the generalization). We would love to move forward with implementing Zimbra! But we are coming from an ISP/POP setup and there will be a fair amount of work for a 2-3 person IT staff (100+ boxes) in server setup, migration, etc., not to mention money.

There is no way we 'hang our hats on' and sell Zimbra to the powers that be without knowing the short term future of the product. It is an unecessary risk. When there is some formal solid official statements (after March 15th ish ) from Yahoo as to their future or from Zimbra as to their viability after a possible takeover we will make our decision. Until then we continue watching, waiting, and looking at other options.

Don't get me wrong - We want to deploy Zimbra!

-Anxiously awaiting better answers-

[LMStone]

FWIW we are a taking a "cautious" approach to Microsoft's bid.

We are continuing with our plan to upgrade our Zimbra servers from 32-bit SuSE ES9 running Zimbra 4.5 to 64-bit SuSE ES10 running Zimbra 5.0.2, and have even made some additional hardware investments to ease that transition.

But, since we live and die by our reputation, we fully disclose to prospective Zimbra hosting clients the fact that Microsoft has made this unsolicited bid, and, as a former technology mergers and acquisitions investment banker, how I can't really see Zimbra thriving under Microsoft ownership, given that Zimbra is such a terrific alternative to Exchange.

The net result is that our prospects have delayed making any commitments. None have chosen to upgrade their existing Exchange (or other) infrastructure, and none have signed up yet, either. They are all taking a "wait and see" approach over the next few weeks/months.

To be fair, if I were in their shoes I would be doing the same thing.

Are we a little nervous ourselves? Yes, but just a little. Nonetheless, IMHO even if the deal closed tomorrow and Microsoft announced they were killing Zimbra, we believe our NE license would give us almost a year of continued Zimbra use--long enough to migrate to something else.

Though we are not attorneys, our view is that Microsoft could not unilaterally cancel our NE license (except for breach), without subjecting themselves to a tortious interference claim. And that's good fodder for a class-action suit right there (as well as additional articles by PJ on Groklaw...)

All of this is a long way of saying that we feel we really have no choice but to hang in there and wait to see how this shakes out. Not a great place to be, but it is what it is...

With best regards to all,
Mark

[bigmudcake]

Originally Posted by dijichi2

But Zimbra is not licensed under a true opensource license, it's under a badgeware license.

This does not stop employees / ex-employees from still maintaining / improving the code. Or anyone else for that matter. Do you really think the interested parties who have spent years on this great product would just walk away and abandon it when the licence DOES ALLOW them to continue development.

Originally Posted by dijichi2

And what if Yahoo caves into shareholder/legal pressure and submits to takeover next week? I don't hold out much hope for regulatory approval either taking much time or helping zimbra out.

Even if Yahoo caves in, the wheels still need to turn. You need to appreciate the size and complexity of the deal, plus regulatory approval is not just needed in the USA. Again, this is a massive takover attempt involving alot of international hurdles as well. Plus there are many other interested parties who will slow the deal i.e. Google

Originally Posted by dijichi2

Are you suggesting companies should continue to use 4-year old software which very shortly would be guaranteed to be riddled with security holes?

Again see earlier comment, "very shortly" is not a term I would use to describe the takeover.

You again also suggest that if I purchased "now" all development would cease and I would be stuck with "4-year old" software. Again, see my earlier comments, I believe development would still continue for the next 2 years at least, with security maintenance for at least the following 2 years (being an opensource licence). Now as anyone who still uses another 4 year old product "Windows XP" would know, this is nothing to freak out about.

Plus lets not forget, Zimbra 5 has introduced many advanced features such as CalDAV, mobile support, AJAX integration that is lights years ahead. I hardly believe it is 4 year old software, in 4 years time.

I think terms like "cave in", "very shortly" and "riddled with security holes" are a little over the top, and only help to spread FUD.

I think anyone holding off because of the potential MS/Yahoo deal at the expense of the advantages the product holds for their business, is not doing themselves justice, and are not making a decision with all the facts in mind.

[bigmudcake]

Originally Posted by rcliff

the MS/Yahoo deal could certainly develop very quickly from here.

Again, this is FUD, take a step back, look how big this deal is, and how many interested parties are involved, including other countries and competitors.

Originally Posted by rcliff

Microsoft kills all Zimbra development immediately.

More FUD, being a big company, do you honestly think MS turns on a dime. Heck it has taken over a year just to release Vista SP1. Look at how long FoxPro database survived after being bought by MS even though it was a direct competitor to Access.

Originally Posted by rcliff

security holes will surface and there will be no one patching them

I for one, because I have access to the code (as everyone does, being opensource) will be patching any security issues found. I believe there will be many interested parties involved, that will enable security maintenence to be done on Zimbra.

Lets get past this "everyone will abandon the Zimbra product at the drop of a hat" idea.

[pavera]

If the license requires attribution, and MS owns the trademark and says "You can't use this trademark anymore for any purpose" (which they will have the right to do, and will do I think to kill Zimbra).

Given that near certainty how do you read the license to see that the license allows further development/distribution?

You cannot distribute zimbra without the trademarks (because of the attribution clause in the license), if MS denies you access to those trademarks, you will be in violation of either MS's trademarks or the Zimbra license, both of which MS will sue you for to kill Zimbra. How do you proceed? What is the answer to this?

[bigmudcake]

Originally Posted by LMStone

But, since we live and die by our reputation, we fully disclose to prospective Zimbra hosting clients the fact that Microsoft has made this unsolicited bid,
........

........
The net result is that our prospects have delayed making any commitments. None have chosen to upgrade their existing Exchange (or other) infrastructure, and none have signed up yet, either.

Do you also disclose that all Linux distros are under a patent threat from Microsoft, that way, you can kill off the potential clients alot better.

Originally Posted by LMStone

given that Zimbra is such a terrific alternative to Exchange.

Then let the product stand on its ability to enhance your clients IT needs.

Originally Posted by LMStone

Though we are not attorneys, our view is that Microsoft could not unilaterally cancel our NE license (except for breach), without subjecting themselves to a tortious interference claim. And that's good fodder for a class-action suit right there (as well as additional articles by PJ on Groklaw...)

Finally, a bit of rational thinking

Originally Posted by LMStone

All of this is a long way of saying that we feel we really have no choice but to hang in there and wait to see how this shakes out.

You will be waiting quite a while I think

[bigmudcake]

Originally Posted by pavera

If the license requires attribution, and MS owns the trademark and says "You can't use this trademark anymore for any purpose" (which they will have the right to do, and will do I think to kill Zimbra).

Given that near certainty how do you read the license to see that the license allows further development/distribution?

You cannot distribute zimbra without the trademarks (because of the attribution clause in the license), if MS denies you access to those trademarks, you will be in violation of either MS's trademarks or the Zimbra license, both of which MS will sue you for to kill Zimbra. How do you proceed? What is the answer to this?

I am no lawyer, but if the licence that is bundled with the software says you are authorized/must use the Zimbra logo in any future development/distribution of that copy of the software, then thats good enough for me, regardless of any future outcomes.

[pavera]

Well, I don't read the license that way. I believe the license is structured so as to always give control to the Zimbra corporation. Once MS owns Zimbra, they will have that control.

I am also not an attorney, so I don't know the answer, that is why I would like clarification. This should be a simple question that Zimbra's chief legal council should be able to answer and put to rest once and for all. The fact that they haven't shows to me anyway, that they don't know themselves (scary), or the answer is my answer, that after MS owns Yahoo, Zimbra can be effectively shut down because of the license. It is then in Zimbra's best interest to keep quiet and milk as many customers as they can before the merger, because if they came out now and said "Yes, after this merger, MS can close zimbra down completely" obviously, there go all their customers.

This is a simple question which should have been answered by now, I don't care about the NE stuff, that is proprietary and will be closed down by MS. However, I would love to hear from someone at Zimbra regarding the state of the OSS project post-merger. Does the attribution clause give MS a clear path to shutting down development/distribution by cutting off access to the trademarks and zimbra name?

Obviously Zimbra won't have a solid corporate backing post-merger, MS will lay off or re-deploy the zimbra devs. Zimbra is against everything MS. It uses Linux, Java, and Open Source. To live in an MS world it will have to be re-written in C# on Windows at the very least.

[nrc]

The license says.

This Agreement does not grant you any right to use the trademarks, service marks or logos of Zimbra or its licensors, except as necessary to fulfill the conditions of Paragraph 2.

So the exception confirms that you're granted the right to use the trademark to meet the terms of the license. I see no way that can be revoked.

[dijichi2]

bigmudcake,

I am not writing zimbra off or dismissing it, at least by choice - I have recently paid my yearly fee for the licenses as I believe it will allow me at least to use the product for another year. I would be very surprised if I can do that again next year but live in hope.

there's no point sticking your fingers in your ears and going 'la la la fud la la license looks ok la la fud fud'. people here are gloomy, but attempting to have a vaguely serious discussion about the facts. to everyone on here, it looks to us like there's no way out.

1) Opensource and NE version license states logo/attribution is mandatory for use/development.
2) Whoever owns the logo/trademark is within his/her right to stop use of it (think Redhat and CentOS).

If anyone has any knowledge or proof to the contrary, then please make us all happy and say something. As others have pointed out, the fact that Zimbra have not said anything is pretty scary. Yahoo have implemented golden parachutes and personally I would have thought it highly unlikely Zimbra will exist in any other form than a ghost skeleton crew to fulfill the bare basics of NE licenses after a 'merger'. The best we can hope is that the Zimbra crew either do a deal to spin it off, or disband and reband to somehow start again with the small amount of code that isn't badgeware. Maybe they have something up their sleeves that they can't say, as you say they're too good a bunch to just let it go. However if you think M$ won't kill Zimbra at the drop of a hat you're living in cuckoo land - in fact it's their duty to protect Exchange/Outlook which provides a vast amount of their income.

The one good thing to come out of this, is I think most people in the opensource world will not touch attribution licensed software with a ten-thousand-foot bargepole from now on.