Zimbra vs. Scalix

[fselendic]

Originally Posted by phoenix

You can certainly send it to them (send them a link to the thread, if you like), what they'll say is up to them.

There's no 'flame war' here, it's just a discussion about direction. Obviously we can't please all the people all the time but my personal opinion is we have to try to get a many on-board as we can.

I don't have any influence on company policy, that's the job of management and they'll ultimately do what they think is best for the company and it's customers. It is a very difficult tightrope to walk.

Fair enough. Btw, management job is to do what's best for company and its shareholders And, yep, a very difficult tightrope to walk.

Thanks for fast and honest answers, though. I'll try my luck with sales, if that doesn't go, I will push management a bit. That's me, always pushy But with good intentions.

[KevinH]

Thanks guys for the candid and open feedback. We've heard the ask for free Outlook connectors before and continue to choose not to do so for many reasons. One is the cost of support for very small organizations is extremely high and not profitable. A few ideas I was thinking about that may be more convincing would be based on contributions. How about a system where if you contribute a new full language pack (Ajax, Lite, Admin, etc) or after writing and contributing X Zimlets or submitting patches to X open bugs, etc your rewarded in Network users. Basically some sort of elite community level that would show your support and dedication to Zimbra in return it would grant you access to some small number of Network users. Other ideas or contributions that would fall into a category like this? Is this something that seems reasonable?

[Artturi]

Working in a high scholl, we're using Zimbra OE because the Network Features concerned a too small percentage of the users (management essentially).
We certainly would be interested in paying for the features of the network edition if it were only for the people really using it. An idea would be to have a special class of service with the features of the network edition that could only be applied on a limited number of accounts but that has maybe already been discussed ?

I think about this because I like your idea to be rewarded some Network users for some contributions but having around 2000 accounts to manage, if I contrbuted something interesting, I'm affraid there would still be too many NE users on the bill.

My 2 cents...
Regards,
Artturi

[keffa]

Originally Posted by KevinH

Thanks guys for the candid and open feedback. We've heard the ask for free Outlook connectors before and continue to choose not to do so for many reasons. One is the cost of support for very small organizations is extremely high and not profitable. A few ideas I was thinking about that may be more convincing would be based on contributions. How about a system where if you contribute a new full language pack (Ajax, Lite, Admin, etc) or after writing and contributing X Zimlets or submitting patches to X open bugs, etc your rewarded in Network users. Basically some sort of elite community level that would show your support and dedication to Zimbra in return it would grant you access to some small number of Network users. Other ideas or contributions that would fall into a category like this? Is this something that seems reasonable?

I would open up my user base to feedback requests in return for a few pennies from heaven so to speak.

Once we have moved over to Zimbra I don't think I would get to run focus groups again for obvious reasons but I'd probably get a lot more feedback (Or moans) anyway.

[keffa]

Originally Posted by Artturi

Working in a high scholl, we're using Zimbra OE because the Network Features concerned a too small percentage of the users (management essentially).
We certainly would be interested in paying for the features of the network edition if it were only for the people really using it. An idea would be to have a special class of service with the features of the network edition that could only be applied on a limited number of accounts but that has maybe already been discussed ?

I think about this because I like your idea to be rewarded some Network users for some contributions but having around 2000 accounts to manage, if I contrbuted something interesting, I'm affraid there would still be too many NE users on the bill.

My 2 cents...
Regards,
Artturi

As I understand it, Zimbra OS edition and network edition can exist side by side for those users who need it and OS edition for those who don't.

This whole discussion to me seems to be missing an opportunity here. Almost everyone so far has stated that you don't get an Outlook connector as their reason for not using Zimbra and it seems to me the Outlook connector is all they want. If people need the Outlook connector for those users who want it, yet the network edition does not justify it's costs, why not just build a Outlook connector and charge a smaller sum for it based on however many clients it needs to connect (Obviously this would work with a key pairing system for the server to keep the use of it in check with their license). That way your offering a much nicer model than those people who have more than 25 users who need access to Outlook yet not enough of them to justify using the network edition and your not really losing anyone?

[fselendic]

Originally Posted by KevinH

Thanks guys for the candid and open feedback. We've heard the ask for free Outlook connectors before and continue to choose not to do so for many reasons. One is the cost of support for very small organizations is extremely high and not profitable. A few ideas I was thinking about that may be more convincing would be based on contributions. How about a system where if you contribute a new full language pack (Ajax, Lite, Admin, etc) or after writing and contributing X Zimlets or submitting patches to X open bugs, etc your rewarded in Network users. Basically some sort of elite community level that would show your support and dedication to Zimbra in return it would grant you access to some small number of Network users. Other ideas or contributions that would fall into a category like this? Is this something that seems reasonable?

Could be interesting approach. Nice thinking. I'm also in a middle of making up proposal for profitable and widespread OpenSource, somewhat in line what you've just mentioned (has a lot to do with fairplay, which is a basics of your proposal, but mine will be more focused around branding and micropayments).

However, why would you support small organizations? That's our job. Is it profitable? Maybe not too much, but what if one lives in a country where there aren't many big companies? For example, my main driver is catching as much government agencies as possible. They have the money, and here in Europe, are easier to convince to go OS way. Here in Croatia we have several multi thousand desktop Linux migrations under way, something impossible just 6 months ago.

Let's say that you do give 10 Network seats (functionality wise, actually only Outlook plugin we are arguing about now missing) + unlimited basic, in a basic/opensource package. Of course, without any support. No one sane would ask you to give something totally free, and then spend your resources on support. You can clearly state that this edition is without warranty, support, indemnification, whatever. And that all of that can be purchased under bla bla bla terms.

With this current pricing your first version for mixed Outlook environments starts at 875$ per year. Which is ok if you wanted to get rid of smaller, not profitable to support companies. However, that is reducing your market share (in users term, not $$ terms), and crippling your distribution channels a bit.

Out there are several ways to fix that problem, from selling Outlook/iCal connectors for some fixed price, not dependent of your current licensing scheme, to Scalix approach, and, let's not forget hardcore GPL with FLOSS exception path some have taken, and I'm a big fan of. Not from fundamentalistic/religious reasons. Simply practical ones. Easier integration, better penetration, guaranteed code flow back to you (see, your translations, Zimlets problem) and, most of all, not a thousand of badgeware licenses and links around on my (and on my customers) screen estate. And you can still keep SuperUltraEnterprise Network checkboxes where you think appropriate (Wildfire/Openfire way).

I'm on a little crusade right now trying to get some perspective companies to understand that. Tough task Ridiculed by many. But, Alfresco at first said no Keep a close look at them guys, they are pioneering that approach in OS business software space, if they do well, you'll know what to do.

Back to topic, one way to fix it is your approach (which would be unnecessary if you were GPL). We would gladly give back something to you, a good Croatian translation, for a start (if you don't have one). Also, I see that you are using Lucene, that part would also be fun, to provide full Lucene search support for this market. We need it anyway for some other products, so we are already working on it.

Anyway, there's also one another way possible for that Outlook connector problem to go away. I've read somewhere that you'll offer CalDav support in your next version. Well, someone will just have to make MAPI/Caldav translator plugin


PS. I know GPL sounds extreme, and you'll probably just skip that part of text, eyes rolling, and am aware how stupid and impractical it may seem from your current point of view, but, as someone deep to the elbows in OS software, I do have to warn about what is happening on the field; people are unbelievably confused about OS licensing, both users and implementators. The situation is getting worse every day, and lots of implementators just steal or mix incompatible licenses, lots of companies don't have a clue of what are they using and is it legal, and lots of companies avoid it because they should have an turbo expert team of lawyers to explain them differences, and possible problems. The situation is on a verge of exploding, especially now with GPL3 added to a mix. That all just benefits proprietary companies, and hurts us as an opensource integrators, and you, as an opensource product provider(s). So, I'll always point out that, from my point of view, badgeware is totally unnecessary, and will hurt us all in the end. However, the code is your property, and you have a right to do with it whatever you want, and I truly respect that. Keep in mind I'm not in "free as in beer" camp, and that "free" part is actually damaging OS software model. That part I do find ridiculous, but I think that there has to be a better solution to make money in OSS than badgeware.

PS2. After two hours of comparing one MPL derivate (one high visibility OS software) and MPL license, I finally managed to find a difference between the two. It was not Exibit B, it was hidden in responsible court definition. But, that's not all. I also found a bug in that license, copy-pasted reference to "MPL", which is forbidden by MPL itself. The situation is getting really ridiculous.


Regards,
Filip Šelendić
Protenus d.o.o.
CEO

[JoshuaPrismon]

Originally Posted by KevinH

Thanks guys for the candid and open feedback. We've heard the ask for free Outlook connectors before and continue to choose not to do so for many reasons. One is the cost of support for very small organizations is extremely high and not profitable. A few ideas I was thinking about that may be more convincing would be based on contributions. How about a system where if you contribute a new full language pack (Ajax, Lite, Admin, etc) or after writing and contributing X Zimlets or submitting patches to X open bugs, etc your rewarded in Network users. Basically some sort of elite community level that would show your support and dedication to Zimbra in return it would grant you access to some small number of Network users. Other ideas or contributions that would fall into a category like this? Is this something that seems reasonable?

Kevin, this is a brilliant idea. Absolutely. As a long time Zimbra community member, I love this idea, because it encourages the idea that Open Source software isn't free - you need to push in if you want to get out. Italso is a great idea because it will help small enthusiasts like me to actually support the install that I have already.

[mcevoys]

>>Kevin, this is a brilliant idea.

Yep....for the 2% of the community that can actually code. For the other 98%, it is perfectly useless.

I'd handle it differently. If support cost is the primary concern, make <25 users=forum/bugzilla support only. Takes away the direct cost and lets the community handle it.

[JoshuaPrismon]

Originally Posted by mcevoys

>>Kevin, this is a brilliant idea.

Yep....for the 2% of the community that can actually code. For the other 98%, it is perfectly useless.

I'd handle it differently. If support cost is the primary concern, make <25 users=forum/bugzilla support only. Takes away the direct cost and lets the community handle it.

Just brainstorming, and obviously, my soul belongs to a corporation other then Zimbra, so nothing I say here has any bearing on what Zimbra ultimately does (other then them listening to their users - which they are very good at)

It doesn't have to be just code, evangelizing, helping other people with code, translating, helping OSS users on the forums, etc are all really good things that would probably be worth it for the Zimbra folks.

The entire purpose of Open Source isn't "give it away", it's make it communal so people can invest in it, optimize it and make it better. Put it another way, what Zimbra has is a blueprint to build a house. They give that away for free. Sometimes they help build it. Sometimes they add bells and whistles. They charge money for features that are legitimately corporate only (although there are some such as HTML translation of attachments and mailbox by mailbox backups that I would argue isn't). The rest of the code they give away in hope they make up the difference by contributions (such as translations and zimlets), evangelizing (such as the WSJ article) and the various mentions on slashdots and digg, and for the right to use software from other people and companies who made the same bargain.

As far as support (and the costs associated) I really don't think there is any problem making a "Contributor" version support limited to the forums and Bugzilla at all.

But I do think you need to invest in Zimbra to make it worth the Zimbra's guys efforts to invest in what you are doing. Zimbra scratches a particularly nasty and hairy itch (problem) that we have. We scratch a itch that they have.

[pbrunnen]

Hello all,
I want to start out by thanking everyone for this debate... This needs to be aired. I want to preface my post with the disclaimer that I am letting off a bit of frustrated steam here... please take this with a grain of salt. I do not wish to offend anyone, but I need to add my voice.

I am 100% with the idea that people need to understand that open source is not free (as in beer)... But... I agree that the managers at Zimbra are locking themselves out of market space. Heck, it seems that there are enough people clamoring, why don't they just sell a per-seat outlook or isync connector?? (Heck, set a cap of 25 individual licenses if you really feel that strongly about it.) Talk about not listening to the community... heh.

I am a very small consulting team. Two people... We need to share... but $800 a year is not an option. If anything I am tempted to buy it once and never renew. Maybe if it was $800 upfront and $300-$400 a year to renew I would... but $800 a year is a whole lot of $$ for me. Maybe in two or three years when I have another two employees, I would be happy to spend that… but right now, that is not an option.

I do feel the need to send a glare down to whomever it was that said about using just the web ui... This is the typical response that M$ pushes and it is WRONG! We are not all connected all the time! (Nor should it be, but that is another rant) Just because most coders are not finding themselves on airplanes often or on the road, they seem to miss the fact that 'hey, I need to type up and read downloaded e-mails... but I don't always have reasonable internet access' and no $20/min on the plane is Not reasonable. (Maybe for good 'ol Billy, but not me)

-Cheers, Peter.